Discussion on Rule change regarding contracts from GroupMe

[Moorestown Big Dogs]

Dynasty Empire

Moorestown that is exactly why we wanted to restructure the rookie salary progression. I noticed in football that there was an abundance of cap and not a lot of players that you want to spend it on. When rookies have a $1 4 year deal and they become really good you can keep signing them for years way under what they are worth. Only players that are getting paid value are the one originally drafted.


Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs

I hear you. That was one of the rules I voted "Yes" for. I think that owners should have the benefit of having drafted the right prospects, so they can use them for 4 years at a greatly reduced price. But after that they should be Auctioned so that players are at market value.

I don't know whether Kershaw is being kept, but if not, he could go for an astronomical number like $80 - half of Cap, just because there are not a lot of other guys to bid on.


Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a team with about $9 and need 5 more players to reach the 22 player minimum, and a team with $11 left that need 7 to make minimum.


Dynasty Empire

if we don't get some sort of balance it will be crazy in a few years but everyone wants to keep cheap good players(myself included) but like you say if Kershaw is $80 then Syndergaard will be $10...lol


CFL Rejects

Personally i would rather see the resign percentage go up from 150% to resign to 200% will still allow you to keep your young players but for a shorter time period


Green & Gold

The problem I have with changing rookie salaries is right now we are all on the same even playing field. We all have the same opportunity to draft players and keep our own players. This new rule would allow too many "grandfathered" players to remain with their teams. The $2 Donaldson's and the $3 Bryant's for example, would now give an unfair advantage to certain teams. This is my biggest problem with deciding to restructure the rookie salaries.


Easy Freese

This is one of the reasons why I think an RFA system would work best. We wouldnt have to worry about changing any salaries while still being able to achieve the same intended outcome


Giant of Jazz

I voted against the RFA proposal this year, but it is starting to make more and more sense to me. Not exactly sure how it was written this year, but I could agree with the drafting owner having the rights/benefits for 4 years once he has been called up. Then the player going to auction with the original owner having the right to match the winning bid to retain the player and set a new contract.


Green & Gold

I would rather see 4 years of team control after minor player call up followed by arbitration. Maybe players salary doubles in arbitration? (just a thought/idea with doubling). Offer owners the option of arbitration for up to 3 years. One season at a time.


Lake Michigan Whales/Steve


I personally feel that the questionnaire one time a year is the flawed part that needs to be corrected. Change requires dialogue and give and take. Something a survey just can't do.


Giant of Jazz

I agree Whales. Had I known anything about the RFA proposal I may had voted for it. I may have missed an earlier discussion on it, but the first time I had heard anything about it was when I saw it on the survey.


Lake Michigan Whales/Steve

I just think that after many conversations I have heard many times it stated "I'll agree to that if this caveat was included or not included" That type of thing.

Just like our governments. During the year we should discuss the changes we agree upon. Analyze all angles to verify for unintended consequences. And implement change during off season. If some things have no impact on current year we should implement immediately if everyone agrees.

Just my two cents

I also free that whenever possible the rules across all league should be uniform. For example the 1 year buyout after trade deadline. That one should be easy.

[S-Man Fanatics]

Just an idea but make it a progressive percentage on each re-signing. Example 1.5% the first time you re-sign and maybe 2.5/% the second term you sign the player to. Just thinking out loud.

[CFL Rejects]

Here is my major problem with this whole idea. I spend hours researching and following minor league players so i have an idea who i am drafting. So after all this research i draft the players acordingly, sometimes they are a diamond and sometimes a bust. But now we are trying to limit the length of the contract i can sign this player to. So all my research and time spent is wasted. Just because other managers cant or wont put the effort into finding these diamonds. Really makes the minor draft a total waste of time. No research required just draft the top ranked player and go.

[S-Man Fanatics]

I understand what you are saying. In your opinion of the players that get drafted in this league will never see a major league diamond?

[Moorestown Big Dogs]

Lake Michigan Whales

As previously mentioned in other threads. I feel the way to address it is to increase the salaries at the beginning. For example, changing 1st Rounders to maybe 3, and 2nd Rounders to 2 and leaving other rounds to $1. Something like that. I'm against the wording of restriction on "the number of times drafted players can be re-signed" Please don't forget Kris Bryant is greatly underpaid. Also you need to take into consideration pre-arbitration years as well as arbitration years. Kris Bryant made $625,000 last year.

2nd Rounders to $2.5 above

Easy Freese

While I think increasing definitely salaries helps, I dont think it solves the problem. Even if we change the salaries, A top rookie for $3, will be resigned for 4 years. when that contract expires he'll be making $6.25 after his 5th year on a roster. That guy will then be resigned for 4 more years and that contract will end with him making only $13. That guy will then be renewed if he's a star... etc. so basically after 9 years a guy will max out at $13. Under this system there will likely be guys that will be owned for their entire careers. This doesnt seem to be in the spirit of most contract fantasy leagues imo.

S-Man Fanatics

Easy that is my fear. I think the trades will go way down. As the McCutchen's and Kershaw's retire managers are going to choose to hang onto the Berrios and Betts and all this cap but nobody to spend it on because the stars kept being resigned so cheap. Just my take.

Giant of Jazz

I'm with Whales that there should never be a restriction on how many years a player can be re-signed. I'm also with Freese that upping the call up salary really isnt going to make that big of a difference either. I also think that whomever drafted the player should reap some rewards for drafting him. I dont think the original drafter should ever be forced to give up a player just because hes getting a sweet deal on him.

Easy Freese

Well with an RFA system, you'd be getting the best of both. You'd reap the rewards of a great draft pick by getting 5 well below market value for the player, while also still maintaining the right to match on his next contract, thus being able to keep the player for potentially 9 years. You wouldnt be forced to give up the player.

Giant of Jazz

I think I would be able to support a RFA system where after the 4 year contract is up, the player goes to FA where he is bid on and after the bid has been held for 24 hours it goes back to the original owner and he can either choose to pay the winning auction price/current market value or let the player go. That way he still has the rights and doesn't have all options taken away for making a good draft choice.

Easy Freese

Exactly

Giant of Jazz

I agree Freese.

We must have been typing at the same time lol...

Easy Freese

I dont think people are saying you should automatically lose the guy, just that you should have to pay a fair price for him

Giant of Jazz

I agree. I would have voted yes on that rule had we talked about it and I understood it more fully before the survey was posted. It really does make sense.

Hitmen

A decision on this need to be made sooner rather than later, it will impact on what type of league this is.
No minor league draft should be held in any contract league till this issue is work out.

Easy Freese

Why?

I doubt that will be an issue though given that we just finished our draft

Hitmen

Take football I would draft very differently Base on if that rule was in place or not

Easy Freese

well football is a different situation because you can draft college guys.

Hitmen

I just did 2 trades in hockey that I may not of done if this RFA rule was in place

Easy Freese

I think it would definitely impact trading strategy, but how would it impact drafting itself?

Green & Gold

With the way owners bid in here, I am not in favor of the RFA and a match highest bid after 4 years rule. I would rather see an escalating arbitration after 4 years.
I will post my suggestion on ProBoards.

Hitmen

I rather not discuss that in open chat for everyone to see my strategy

Easy Freese

ok
       
Hitmen
  
All I'm saying could get this work out in the next 2-3 months
       
Green & Gold
  
What would be a $2 minors cap on the 4th year?
       
Easy Freese
  
well it would be resigned at $3, $3.5, $4, $4.5 for the next 4 years after his initial forced callup
       
Green & Gold

Thank you.
       
CFL Rejects
  
Regardless changes cant happen this year so no impact on draft this year
       
Hitmen
  
That impact will not happen for 4 years when the rookie come of contact. But which rookies I draft in any up coming draft will be impacted by the rules
       
CFL Rejects
  
So it still wont happen this year. We have plenty of time to work out this and not panic and put some half assed plan together. No the rules for this season has been set so draft as you normally would. You cant do a draft plannin on rules down the road that you have no idea if they will take effect or not
       
Hitmen
  
I really don't think you understand 
       
Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
  
I feel there are tons of unintended consequences with RFA. I would be more inclined to see something like a few franchise tags. 
       
CFL Rejects
  
I totally understand hitmen
       
Green & Gold
  

I posted my full idea on ProBoards. Feel free to rip it apart. But at least read it. Thanks.
       
Dynasty Empire
  
Does this seem to be an issue over all 4 sports in contract?
       
Hitmen
  
I think we should have the same rules over all 4 sports
       
CFL Rejects
  

I have been stuggling putting teams together from the crap i inherited and had a ton of fun doing so. Have i one said we need changes because so and so can lock up a player i want?? I research and follow the minor league so i can get the next diamond and lock him up. Or trade a few good players for one great one.
       
Dynasty Empire
  
Just to be clear there is no perfect solution but I think everyone can see something needs to be done
       
Hitmen
  
I agree with you. That why we need to know the playing field going toward 
       
CFL Rejects
  
Lol and im agreeing with you but im just saying we can hash this out over the season and not just rush it
       
Hitmen
  
I wouldn't want to do a another minor league draft without out knowing what the rules are going to be. If we go to RFA system draft pick become less valuable 
       
Giant of Jazz
  
Not necessarily. You would still get a solid 5 years out of a drafted player for really cheap. That more than half of most player's careers.
       
Mike/Stark
  
I would like to see us keep the entry salaries the same but go to an RFA system like Freese and Jazz are saying. The reason I'd keep the opening salaries the same is becase for every Connor McDavid there are 18 Olli Juolevis and 13 Jacob Zborils. All of whom make $2 entry. For most, that $2 is probably double what you'd be paying for a similarly producing veteran. 
100% the owner needs to have the right to match winning bid. If that isn't included in the rules, I'd seriously consider leaving. Good drafting needs to be rewarded, as well as all the time and effort that would go into acquiring a young star on his entry level deal
       
Hitmen
  
I agree I voted for the RFA in the baseball survey 
       
Mike/Stark
  

S-Man did a good job outlining the problem: "...As the McCutchen's and Kershaw's retire managers are going to choose to hang onto the Berrios and Betts and all this cap but nobody to spend it on because the stars kept being resigned so cheap."
      
I also agree with CFL that time is on our side. No need to rush into a decision. 
      
@dynasty Empire "Does this seem to be an issue over all 4 sports in contract?" Definitely, yes
  
Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs
  
Great to see such passionate discussion. And I had posted that changes should be in effect for the 2019 offseason, so that owners can adjust their strategies accordingly. I have responded to the 2 posts on the message board with my thoughts on their suggestions.
       
Quahogs
  

Two of the main concerns I have for this rule would be when it would be implemented because it wouldn't really be fair to teams that have loaded up on draft picks in recent draft, and would it affect players that have already been drafted?
       
Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
  
I'm in favor of change but I feel the proposals set forth are dramatic and leave open the possibility of unintended consequences. Why can't we focus on smaller changes first and proceed from there.
       
Quahogs
  
One fear I have of this rule is that people will just run players prices up and will really hurt the value of solid drafts.
       
Easy Freese
  

Well they couldnt necessarily run up player prices because they'd have to be prepared to own that player if the manager doesnt match
       
Hitmen
  
Just about to say that
       
Quahogs
  
Even if that's the case, it still devalues the draft, which in my opinion is one of the best aspects of this league. Getting someone in the 4th or 5th round is incredibly valuable, that value would be taken away with the RFA rule.
       
Easy Freese
  
You'd still get them for at least 5 years of well below market value. that in itself is already tremendous value
      
whatever we end up doing, whether it be an RFA or raise prices, is going to devalue the draft somewhat
       
Quahogs
  
Yeah, but it's the same as 1st round picks. I'd propose that only 1st & 2nd round picks face the RFA rule. That's where most of the star players come off the board, and I'm assuming that star players being on cheap contracts is the reason this RFA thing is being tossed around.
       
Easy Freese
  
someone should archive all these messages. some great convo going on here
       
Quahogs
  
I think that having just 1st & 2nd rounders face RFA rules after 5 years would be the best way to go. That would likely prevent 90%+ of the star players from being on cheap contracts since most of them were likely early round picks. It would make getting a steal in the later rounds very valuable because not everyone would have young stud on great contracts anymore.
       
Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
  
Great input Q
       
Easy Freese
  
I think maybe more likely would have some modified RFA system that can will affect players differently. so maybe the later rounds the manager only has to match 80% or something like that
       
Quahogs
  
The RFA rule wouldn't completely fix the situation because there's always going to be guys like Jacob DeGrom that slip through the cracks.
       
S-Man Fanatics
  
As I said before if there is nothing done FA will be a thing of the past because all contracts will be so cheap to resign everyone will be resigned.
      
Hitmen
  
That a 100% right
       
Quahogs
  
I think there's a happy medium somewhere between everyone if an RFA after 5 years and what we have right now..
       
Giant of Jazz
  
I actually like Quahogs idea. It think it would cover about 90% of the drafted prospects that turn into valued superstars. Chalk the other 10% up to good homework and a little luck.
      
S-Man Fanatics
  
I think everyone agrees something needs to be done. Finding the happy medium is the key.
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[Moorestown Big Dogs]

Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs

While almost all of the focus so far has been on losing some value for Minor League drafted players, the impetus for my proposal was to create more players with starting line up potential to be available in Free Agency. As it stands now, I see about 13 players (10 bats and 3 arms) that are likely to be everyday players who will be Free Agents. That is less than 1 per team, meaning the bidding war for them will be intense. And we have over $700 in Cap Space to bid on them, so the numbers will get well above what they should. (Which is why I re-signed J. Upton at $38. He is not worth 1/4 of my Cap Space, but I felt he would go for at least that in Free Agency under current conditions)

CFL Rejects

TBH not sure i really like this idea of changing a thing. I joined this league the way it is and have had a blast while doing so. It has gone 5 yrs with the same rule set. I can see what people are talking about with regards to contracts but why punish everyone because they cant have the player they want. If you do the research and end up with a diamond you deserve to be rewarded for that. Maybe it will make others to research just as hard.
If a person chooses to lock up say upton just an example and want to sink top notch cap into them then thats their choice. They will suffer at another position to do so.
If you want to make a change with minimal impact on the league just lower the amnt of cap we have to spend. But as far as managers not being able to lock up star players if we take that away we may as well just join a yahoo redraft league
Personally i search dam hard for my minor leagers. Can almost guarentee not a single person knew who wander javier was. And now if he turns into the player i think he will i should be properly rewarded not punished because someone else is too lazy to do research.

Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
Im for small change over time. I think a shock to the system that isn't properly vetted (unintended consequences) could jeopardize the league and network. Let's focus on the things we agree upon and make small changes first.
These are Contract dynasty leagues not redraft leagues.
Many of the thoughts expressed I agree with while on the other hand many I disagree with. But conversation is always a good thing and I truly appreciate all the admin work @bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs is doing.

S-Man Fanatics

One change that may help a little. That is stop trading future cap. If you are out of cap too bad.

Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
A hard cap of agreed upon would solve that.

S-Man Fanatics
Yes and make it like real sports. When you go over you lose cap and/or draft picks the next year.

Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs

CFL and Lake Michigan Whales are certainly correct that change should always looked at carefully, and only made when it can be sure to improve, not destroy. And everyone in this league joined with the current rules in place, so they must be respected. The law of Unintended Consequences is one of the most powerful forces around. From my point of view, the question is not one of should Minor League draft picks that have been worked hard on and after many years pay off give significant benefits to the owner that made them, but rather, for how many years should the smart owner that made them benefit? In MLB, that is basically 6 years. We currently have an infinite system. The RFA suggestions that have been made mostly involve 5 years, very similar to the MLB 6 year plan. Hopefully we can find an area where we have consensus on whether shifting away from infinite to a more specific time frame would benefit the league.

Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
What about the idea of a franchise tag as well. Like how it works in the NFL. Something we could look into
I'm not completely against RFA it just needs to be implemented correctly.

Lake Michigan Whales/Steve

Additionally, in MLB, teams are compensated with a pick if they lose a player. I feel that has to be a part of any RFA system implemented
The new CBA I believe changed that but

BroadStreetBullies

I'm not interested in significant changes and I do not want a hard cap because it will greatly reduce trade deadline deals. My strategies are probably not like the rest..foregoing draft picks for FAs (ie; Donaldson, Blackmon) but I have never missed the playoffs in contract sports. So I like things the way they are..

Lake Michigan Whales/Steve
Well said

S-Man Fanatics

BSB I understand your point but if things stay the way they are right now eventually FA will be gone and trades gone completely because the contracts will be so cheap nobody will let go of their players
Put in perspective we draft less than 100 total people in baseball every year when over 1350 players get drafted by MLB every year. Most of the players we draft will be forced call-up within 3-4 years.

CFL Rejects
Hasnt happened yet and this league has been around for a few years
I have managed to draft and struggle with building a team that might not be a winner yet but will certainly be more competative
Im seriously close to just saying screw it. Why should we all change a leage we joined and had fun with just because a few want a change so they can do the quick fix and be comtetative

BroadStreetBullies

CFL..Keep trading me Gronk and Halak and you'll be fine.

CFL Rejects

Lol that the perfect point and these guys dont see it.

S-Man Fanatics

I was just voicing my opinion. The truth is this is a League for fun it is not like we are playing for tens of thousands of dollars

CFL Rejects

Tired of doing the research on players in countless leagues to draft players that will help shore my team up into a future contender. Just so we can now consider changing things because a few dont want to put any work into their team.

Bruce Jordan / Moorestown Big Dogs

Taking S-Man's point a bit further, we draft 87 players each year. Assuming we are pretty good at drafting the most likely valuable players each year, after 10 years, the top 870 players will be on contracts that started at "Call Up" rate. There are only 750 Major League players, so basically, except for a few older stars at the end of their careers, and a few guys who we missed drafting before they hit the rookie limit, there will be no Free Agents. This does not mean that the league cannot still be great, and competitive, it just means that the Salary Cap aspect, and Free Agency will no longer have much validity. I think that the league is 5 years old right now, and as such, this dropping off of Free Agency is starting to have a significant impact. When we go a few more years down the road, it will become more so. I think that the discussion surrounding finding ways to bring players to Free Agency, and market values, is being had for these reasons.

[Dynasty Empire]

This is a very difficult issue to break down. We need to come up with something that will work before football season.Everyone has valid points but we have to decide on the best solution and not too drastic. It is agreed that something has to bee done for the future or we will have a diluted and uninteresting group of leagues. BSB i see your point and respect your stratagy but these are contract leagues with minor league systems and if any team in MLB knows.If you depleat your farm system and dont replenish it you wont have anything to deal to get those everyday players that you want. I will belooking to those of you who were in this discussion for input in the coming weeks.